What is the SIZE difference between iOS & Android updates?

[Andy Burnelli]

*What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*

nospam wrote:

>> Plus the iOS image is significantly smaller than the Android image for
>> obvious reasons.
>
> conveniently neglecting to mention what they are.

Adult observation... (this post contains information which requires the
reader to comprehend that iOS & Android update completely _differently_).

*What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*

It is an interesting question, the answer to which I doubt neither Steve
nor nospam (nor any of the low-IQ ignorant iKooks) own the mental capacity
to comprehend how _differently_ the two operating systems actually update.

To put it succinctly for those who don't understand operating systems...
a. All operating systems _other_ than iOS update in asynchronous layers.
b. Only iOS updates in using the primitively Paleolithic monolith
c. But even so, iOS breaks down that monolith individually for each device.

That means, for example, on _my_ iOS devices (which are rarely updated),
the iOS monolith will be hugely larger than on, oh say, nospam's device,
which he likely updates every single time Apple pushes out a new release.

> is the smaller and more efficient code size of ios listed in your
> 'document'? rhetorical question.

*What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*

Given it's obvious that neither nospam nor Steve even _understands_ that
iOS updates differently than _all_ other common consumer operating systems,
I doubt there is a simple answer to the "code size" question as a result.

The whole iOS monolith has to be built if Apple is told about a Webkit flaw
exploited in the wild that requires only a single line of code to fix.

Yet, for any individual user, only that "portion" of the iOS code that
changed between their prior release and this new release, gets updated.

It's not clear that nospam or Steve comprehends what I just explained.

Likewise, for Android, the Google Framework has a switch (on by default),
which seamlessly updates only the one Chrome app which has that update.

Who is to say which of those two "one line" updates is larger or smaller?

>> I suppose Google could limit seamless updates to phones with at least
>> 64GB of storage but there' not a reason to spend a lot of effort on this
>> feature since almost no one really cares about it.
>
> there you go again, when any time android can't do something, 'nobody
> really cares about it' despite evidence to the contrary, yet you're
> happy to mention things that favour android which really do not matter
> at all.

*What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*

Unfortunately, nospam, the horribly ugly thing about your personality is
that you own no tenets of common behavior in that every accusation you make
of Steve is actually what you do all the time, far more than Steve does it.

On this, badgolferman recently called you out, where he's one of the few
adults on this newsgroup - so you should have taken heed when he did that.

Your inner personality is so appalling, nospam, so unseemly, that you
always project your own loathsome personal traits onto people like Steve.

>> You do an update and
>> a few minutes later it's done. Splitting up the time between "download"
>> and "install" is not buying you much.
>
> actually, it does, which is one reason why it's split.

*What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*

If any adults are on this newsgroup, the question to answer is what are the
size differences given how completely differently the monolithic iOS
updates compared to how Android (and all other common operating systems)
update.

To oversimplify for the least educated people on this ng to grasp...
a. Android updates in _layers_, each of which can be different in size
b. iOS updates monolithically - but - each device update is tailored
for that device - so the size is dependent on device-specific factors.

Having expended appreciable information in the above post, I doubt there is
a single person on the Apple newsgroup who owns the adult mental capacity
to comprehend a single word I said, but whether or not you can comprehend
these facts, one of my goals is to disseminate the truth to everyone.

Whether or not you own the mental capacity to comprehend what I explained.
--
This is posted because I have two goals on this newsgroup, one of which is
to learn and disseminate useful information; information which most people
don't appear to have the basic mental capacity to even begin to comprehend.

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burnelli wrote:


>  *What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*
>
> If any adults are on this newsgroup, the question to answer is what are the
> size differences given how completely differently the monolithic iOS
> updates compared to how Android (and all other common operating systems)
> update.

Like so many things, the answer is "it varies".

For phones (e.g. Google Pixels) which use the seamless A/B updates, an
upgrade from version "n-1" to version "n" should be a smaller delta
upgrade, but if it's running "n-2" or earlier, it will be a full image.

See the various mechanisms in the sidebar under "Updates"
<https://source.android.com/docs/core/ota>

Some apply to major e.g. android 11, Android 12, Android 13 upgrades
others apply to monthly fixes, or to driver updates by the phone
manufacturer, or core system library udates.

I wish I had time to poke about in the APEX files, but there are lots of
other things eating my time nowadays.

[Andy Burnelli]

Andy Burns wrote:

> Like so many things, the answer is "it varies".

Thanks Andy for taking a shot at answering the question, because it's
something that matters for Android and for iOS, but in different ways.

For Android, the current issue is the A/B stuff that you had explained to
me a while ago when I you and I delved into how long the project mainstream
updates occurred on one of your oldest Android devices.

Since I own an excellent memory, I remember you initially questioned my
characterization of "forever" as the length of time the mainstream/treble
updates occurred - where we concluded - at that time - there were _layers_
of updates for Android, some of which have no known stated end of life.

For the iOS users, claiming an arbitrarily small slice of the iOS monolith
is their way of minimizing the negative impact of the all-too-many iOS
updates which are required because every bug requires a whole new release.

Given every iOS bugfix requires a new release stream, what Apple naturally
does is "wait a while" to collect enough bugfixes to make their update
worthwhile...

However... that inherently primitive monolithic '*wait a while*' flaw in
iOS updates is why half of the past years' worth of zero-day holes were
widely reported to be actively exploited.
<https://www.securityweek.com/apple-patches-exploited-ios-vulnerability-in-old-iphones/>

Notice that while Apple is desperate to minimize the size & frequency of
these bugfix releases - their very delay is what allows attackers in.

Meanwhile, Android's layered approach allows Google to update dozens of
core Android 10+ components, as you're well aware, without any delay.

The main question, always though, is how do we even _know_ when Google is
updating our phones, because it's hard to tell since it's done seamlessly.

Can you tell when Google updates your project mainstream components?
I can't.

> For phones (e.g. Google Pixels) which use the seamless A/B updates, an
> upgrade from version "n-1" to version "n" should be a smaller delta
> upgrade, but if it's running "n-2" or earlier, it will be a full image.

On that question of "seamless", since you know about A/B updates (you
explained them to me long ago); how "seamless" are those updates to you?

I only care for the truth - as I don't love Google any more than I love
Apple, so I'm really curious how "noticeable" those A/B updates are for
you.

While I know iOS is nothing even close to seamless (because I have iOS
devices and they're horrid in terms of their impact on the user), I don't
have experience with A/B updates.

How much of an impact is it to an Android pixel user to be updated A/B?
Could it happen without you even noticing it, for example?

Does it take the phone down for a while (like iOS updates always do)?
Please let me know, and no need to sugarcoat it as I only care of truth.

> See the various mechanisms in the sidebar under "Updates"
> <https://source.android.com/docs/core/ota>
>
> Some apply to major e.g. android 11, Android 12, Android 13 upgrades
> others apply to monthly fixes, or to driver updates by the phone
> manufacturer, or core system library udates.
>
> I wish I had time to poke about in the APEX files, but there are lots of
> other things eating my time nowadays.

As for the APEX files, I wish Google did NOT move to that standard, as I
loved that APK files are _portable_ among all phones (at least in my
experience they have been for years).

I just don't have the skills you have in determining what happens during an
update - but I would LOVE to know how "seamless" you find a typical minor
and major update to your Pixels when the A/B system comes into play.

As you know, my Samsung doesn't have A/B updates, so for me, most updates
happen without me knowing it (e.g., if Google Chrome were to be updated).

Some of my updates are noticed because the phone let's me know, such as the
security updates - which they could do without even bothering to tell me.

And yet others (like Android 11 to Android 12) require a full reboot
and a lengthy (about ten minutes) indexing issue, which, in the scheme of
things is nowhere near as horrible as typical iOS updates - but still -
that's ten minutes taken out of our life for something called "indexing".

In summary, can you answer the one salient question about "seamless" A/B
updates in that it would be nice to know how supposedly seamless they are.

[sms]

On 2/4/2023 12:34 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>
>>   *What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*
>>
>> If any adults are on this newsgroup, the question to answer is what
>> are the
>> size differences given how completely differently the monolithic iOS
>> updates compared to how Android (and all other common operating systems)
>> update.
>
> Like so many things, the answer is "it varies".

True.

iOS 16.3 is 2.8GB.
Android 13 for the Pixel 7 Pro is 2.18GB

The big difference is that, unless they've recently changed the way iOS
is updated, every time they roll the rev, for just a minor fix, it's a
full update.

For Android, you only do a complete update when it's a new Android
version, for revisions to the installed version, it's not a full update
so it's only a small download. This is likely the reason that Google
hasn't bothered to do "seamless upgrades" they are not requiring
multi-GB downloads very often, so it's no big deal to not have seamless
updates available.

I thought that I read somewhere that Apple was going to switch to doing
minor updates the same way that Android does them, but I can't find that
article.

Also, Apple used to promise four years of updates on phones that they
were still selling, but that's no longer the case. You'll definitely get
at least four years from when the device was launched, but not
necessarily from when the device was sold by Apple (not by a carrier who
often sells older, new devices, that Apple isn't selling direct
anymore), see
<https://www.igeeksblog.com/is-android-beating-apple-at-os-updates/>.

[nospam]

In article <trmnpe$25f7f$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> The big difference is that, unless they've recently changed the way iOS
> is updated, every time they roll the rev, for just a minor fix, it's a
> full update.

very much false.

ios updates are incremental and have been for nearly 15 years.

those who actually have ios devices know this because the download time
per update varies, sometimes very quick to download.

> For Android, you only do a complete update when it's a new Android
> version, for revisions to the installed version, it's not a full update
> so it's only a small download.

for ios too, as well as mac os and other systems.

> This is likely the reason that Google
> hasn't bothered to do "seamless upgrades" they are not requiring
> multi-GB downloads very often, so it's no big deal to not have seamless
> updates available.

there you go again with the 'is likely' weasel words. you don't know
the reasons why google, apple, or any other company does or doesn't do
something unless they publicly state the reason, and even then, it
probably isn't the full story.

> I thought that I read somewhere that Apple was going to switch to doing
> minor updates the same way that Android does them, but I can't find that
> article.

of course you can't find it, because no such article exists. it's just
more of your usual easily debunked bullshit. again, ios updates are
incremental.

> Also, Apple used to promise four years of updates on phones that they
> were still selling, but that's no longer the case.

yes it is still the case, with support *much* longer than 4 years.

the iphone 5s, released in late 2013 (nearly 10 years ago), just got an
update *last* *month*.

[badgolferman]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <trmnpe$25f7f$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> The big difference is that, unless they've recently changed the way iOS
>> is updated, every time they roll the rev, for just a minor fix, it's a
>> full update.
>
> very much false.
>
> ios updates are incremental and have been for nearly 15 years.
>
> those who actually have ios devices know this because the download time
> per update varies, sometimes very quick to download.
>

I’d have to agree with nospam here. Minor versions can take just a few
minutes to download and install.

[Andy Burnelli]

badgolferman wrote:

> I'd have to agree with nospam here. Minor versions can take just a few
> minutes to download and install.

Hi badgolferman,

I too have iOS devices so I understand where the likely disconnect is.

You have to take into account that neither Steve nor nospam knows what's
different about how iOS and Android update. Steve knows more than nospam
about Android while nospam knows more than Steve about iOS - but both are
ignorant that Android updates in layers and iOS updates as a monolith.

Worse, both have an agenda which isn't necessarily the God's honest truth
(where truth is always _my_ agenda).

What nospam is doing is playing games with Steve's wording because an iOS
update is _always_ complete when it is created, as Apple has to rebuild the
_entire_ primitive monolithic iOS release stream _every_ numerical change.

Yes. Every bugfix change causes a brand new iOS release in its entirety.
No other common operating system is released that way except for iOS.

That is, if Android or Windows needs to update their default browser, they
do NOT need to create an entire new release stream just to fix the browser.

Notice if iOS needs to fix their default browser, they can't release it
without creating an entirely new monolithic iOS release stream for it.

That's _why_ iOS is built as a primitive static monolith, badgolferman.

This method is so primitive that it's _why_ iOS has the _shortest_ support
of all common consumer operating systems, bar none, badgolferman.

There isn't an iKook alive who comprehends what I just said, but I hope you
do, because the monolith is _why_ Apple has so many bug holes so often.

Now, having explained the monolith, what nospam is talking about is
different. What he's saying is that there is a 'diff' that goes on between
that primitive iOS monolith and every single iOS device on the planet!

What happens is each iOS update to each of the billions of iOS devices gets
their own personal diff of the differences between what they have on their
device today and what Apple's latest primitive monolith has changed.

Notice nospam either plays his classic kindergarten games claiming that
this "diff" is the release or, more likely, it's likely nospam has no clue
this is how Apple puts the primitive monolith diff onto each iOS device.

It's hard to tell with nospam since he's so ignorant of the most obvious
things about either Android or iOS and because he's always playing games.

By way of contrast, Android is _not_ released as a primitive monolith.

Android is released in layers, so Steve is perfectly correct in how he
characterized the size of a complete Android versus that of the layers.

In summary, it's difficult to accurate compare sizes (as Andy Burns noted),
simply because the two operating systems release completely differently.

In laymans terms,
a. Android releases as a modern layered operating system, while
b. iOS releases in a primitive static monolithic operating system.

Obviously the monolith only benefits Apple as no other common consumer
operating system releases the way iOS does (which has huge drawbacks).

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-02-04, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <trmnpe$25f7f$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
><scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> The big difference is that, unless they've recently changed the way
>> iOS is updated, every time they roll the rev, for just a minor fix,
>> it's a full update.
>
> very much false.
>
> ios updates are incremental and have been for nearly 15 years.
>
> those who actually have ios devices know this because the download
> time per update varies, sometimes very quick to download.

The outright lies these asshole trolls try to push to the Apple
newsgroups are laughably false. Anyone with a couple brain cells to rub
together can see for themselves they are obvious lies. And they just
ignore any corrections people make and continue to blurt them out over
and over again as if they think they are fooling anyone. It's frankly
pathetic, and sad.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[gtr]

On 2023-02-05 01:47:12 +0000, Andy Burnelli said:

> What happens is each iOS update to each of the billions of iOS devices gets
> their own personal diff of the differences between what they have on their
> device today and what Apple's latest primitive monolith has changed.

No wonder it takes Apple so long to get a release out the door.

[nospam]

In article <trn222$27f4b$1...@dont-email.me>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:

>
> No wonder it takes Apple so long to get a release out the door.

apple releases updates as quickly as a couple of days, if needed.

[sms]

The update from 16.2 to 16.3 was 600MB. At 10MB/s or so (100Mb/s) it
would take only 60 seconds. The install is what takes a long time on my
iPhones, but perhaps it's faster on the latest Bionic processor-equipped
phones. 16.0 to 16.3 was much larger, and 15.x to 16.0 larger still. But
it does appear that they've figured out how to not have to update the
entire OS which is good.

[Jolly Roger]

How long is "so long", according to you?

[badgolferman]

As the end user what is the drawback to me? A few minutes or something
else?

[Alan]

On 2023-02-04 20:05, badgolferman wrote:
>> In summary, it's difficult to accurate compare sizes (as Andy Burns noted),
>> simply because the two operating systems release completely differently.
>>
>> In laymans terms,
>> a. Android releases as a modern layered operating system, while
>> b. iOS releases in a primitive static monolithic operating system.
>>
>> Obviously the monolith only benefits Apple as no other common consumer
>> operating system releases the way iOS does (which has huge drawbacks).
>>
> As the end user what is the drawback to me? A few minutes or something
> else?
>

Don't worry about it.

If iOS updates were routinely smaller than Android updates, Arlen would
find some reason that larger was better.

[Andy Burnelli]

sms wrote:

> But it does appear that they've figured out how to not have
> to update the entire OS which is good.

Hi badgolferman,

Note that no other common consumer operating system releases like iOS does.
This is important information below that you need to know about iOS.

All I care about is the truth - no matter what that truth is.
*iOS 15 users are Exposed. Naked. Vulnerable. Pitifully left to rot.*

Only iOS 16 users are safe - and - even they are exposed, naked, and
vulnerable until Apple times out on their "wait and see" bugfix attitude.

In bringing the truth to the fore, I need to point out that neither Steve
nor any of the iKooks who have responded have shown _any_ comprehension
whatsoever of _how_ Apple supports, builds & releases iOS.

This is important because no other common consumer operating system is
built using the primitive Paleolithic monolithic format that iOS is.

That primitive build mechanism has huge drawbacks, not the least of which
is Apple is forced to constantly release entirely new releases each and
every time a bug shows up if they don't "wait for a while" for more bugs.

Notice what I said because it's _critically important_ to understand that
Apple is forced, by the primitive monolith they designed, to adopt a "wait
and see" attitude for when to release their collection of bug fixes.

Specifically, this primitive monolith _slows down_ the Apple releases, and,
at the same time, paradoxically, it forces Apple to release bugs before
they're truly fixed (which we've seen time and time again with Apple).

This "wait and see" attitude Apple adopts for their primitive monolith is
one of the main reason nearly _half_ of all zero-day bugs on iOS are widely
exploited in the wild well before Apple ever gets around to the release.

Worse, the instant a release moves from one major version to the next, the
old release is _completely dead_ (in terms of complete hotfixes that is).

This means anyone on iOS 15 today is dead in the water in terms of having
all the hotfixes that Apple has made which will definitely affect users.

They're dead. Exposed. Naked. Vulnerable. Pitifully left to rot by Apple.
Mainly due to the primitive monolithic structure Apple employs for iOS.

Note that no other common consumer operating system releases like iOS does.
*It's a key reason why iOS has the _shortest_ support life of phone OSs.*

[Andy Burnelli]

badgolferman wrote:

> As the end user what is the drawback to me? A few minutes or something
> else?

Hi badgolferman,

Have I ever told a mistruth? Have I ever steered you wrong?
Keep that in mind because what I say below is _why_ you might want to care.

Note that most iKooks, and Steve, are completely ignorant of everything I
say below - but that's only because they have never read the news, nor do
they comprehend how iOS is supported, built, and released.

Clearly none of them understand how a normal (i.e., not iOS) common
consumer operating system is built & supported (e.g., layers).

With that in mind... to faithfully and good heartedly answer your query...

I wouldn't claim that the horrible problems people have habitually
experienced with iOS releases is a big deal overall, just as I wouldn't
claim the lack of A/B releases in non-Pixel Androids is a big deal.

What _is_ a big deal is that the iPhone has the absolute _worst_ record
(for years on end) in terms of zero-day exploits for _all_ smartphones.

Bear in mind Apple has _never_ in its entire history ever found these
zero-day exploits (by definition so that's just a fact); which means Apple
is extremely dependent on other people _telling them_ what holes exist.

Do you care that your iPhone has the worst zero-day record of all phones?

If you don't care that *your iPhone has more zero-day holes* than any other
smartphone, you might _begin_ to care when you find out that nearly _half_
those zero-day exploits were rampant in the wild _before_ Apple had any
idea that you, the supposed valuable customer, was being pwned by hackers.

Do you care that your iPhone is so vulnerable, half have been exploited?

You also may care that *your iPhone has the _shortest_ lifespan* in terms
of support for flagship phones, in that Apple's primitive iOS monolith is
such a burden to support, even for Apple, that Apple dropped iOS 15 hotfix
support like a hot potato. (Note I am well aware Apple made a token fix to
iOS 15, and even further down - but anyone calling that token bugfix a full
hotfix release would be proving how ignorant they are of how iOS is fixed.)

Do you care that your iPhone has the shortest full hotfix support lifespan?

Sure, if you don't care that it takes Apple weeks, and sometimes months to
get around to fixing bugs, then you won't care _how_ Apple builds and
supports its releases.

But the fact iOS is a monolith sets how long it takes Apple to fix bugs.

The longer Apple waits between releases, the more bugs are exploited.
If none of that matters to you, then, sure, there is no drawback to you.

But almost all of that above is due to the primitive monolith that is iOS.

--
This is posted because I have two goals on this newsgroup, one of which is

to learn about & disseminate useful information - which are fact that most
people don't appear to own the mental capacity to even begin to comprehend.

[Alan]

On 2023-02-04 20:29, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> badgolferman wrote:
>
>> As the end user what is the drawback to me? A few minutes or something
>> else?
>
> Hi badgolferman,
>
> Have I ever told a mistruth?  Have I ever steered you wrong?

Do either of those questions answer his?

I'm just going to start snipping everything that doesn't answer his.

Oops! Nothing left!

[nospam]

In article <trn77a$2b46q$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> >>> The big difference is that, unless they've recently changed the way iOS
> >>> is updated, every time they roll the rev, for just a minor fix, it's a
> >>> full update.
> >>
> >> very much false.
> >>
> >> ios updates are incremental and have been for nearly 15 years.
> >>
> >> those who actually have ios devices know this because the download time
> >> per update varies, sometimes very quick to download.
> >>
> >

> > Iąd have to agree with nospam here. Minor versions can take just a few

> > minutes to download and install.
>
> The update from 16.2 to 16.3 was 600MB.

unless your router logs data usage, you have no way to know that.

a web search (which is what you likely did) is not accurate because the
actual size can vary depending on which device it's for.

not that it matters, because you previously said:

In article <trmnpe$25f7f$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> iOS 16.3 is 2.8GB.

even assuming 600 mb, it's a lot less than 2.8 gig, which is clear
proof of *incremental* updates and that you were wrong.

> At 10MB/s or so (100Mb/s) it
> would take only 60 seconds. The install is what takes a long time on my
> iPhones, but perhaps it's faster on the latest Bionic processor-equipped
> phones.

plural? you supposedly traded in your previous iphone for a newer one,
versus keeping both.

> 16.0 to 16.3 was much larger, and 15.x to 16.0 larger still.

that's because those are bigger increments.

> But
> it does appear that they've figured out how to not have to update the
> entire OS which is good.

they figured it out a few decades ago for mac os.

[nospam]

In article <trnba8$39eml$1...@paganini.bofh.team>, Andy Burnelli

<nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

> Have I ever told a mistruth?

yes. very frequently.

[badgolferman]

So does Android release these updates faster and directly to the end user
or must they wait for the phone manufacturer to perform their tests before
it gets installed? In other words, is there a real life difference in how
quickly the end user receives a security patch?

[Andy Burnelli]

badgolferman wrote:

> So does Android release these updates faster and directly to the end user
> or must they wait for the phone manufacturer to perform their tests before
> it gets installed?

Hi badgolferman,

To answer your question, of course Google patches huge portions of the core
systems of Android *WITHOUT the carriers* being involved in that update,
and without needing to get software from the phone manufacturers either.

*It's all done seamlessly over the Internet*, badgolferman.

Haven't you read any of the many discussions we've had on this topic?

Please look up "Project Mainstream" (which changes names periodically).
And also look up "Project Treble" (which is for similar firmware updates).

*Unlike iOS, Android patches most of the operating system asynchronously*
*Over the Internet*

Haven't you been reading the technical news for the past decade or so?

Suffice to say that Android is updated in _layers_ badgolferman, some of
which are updated _forever_ and completely seamlessly badgolferman.
*The user doesn't even realize two dozen modules were updated*

These two dozen core modules, in fact, are _completely_ updated by Google.
*Not the carrier. Not the manufacturer. Google.*
*Seamlessly too!*
*Over the Internet.*

It's been happening since Android 10, badgolferman.
They expanded it in Android 11. Then 12. And then more in Android 13.

We've been discussing this topic for years, badgolferman.
Where have you been? :)

And that's just _one_ of the major Android layers that are quickly updated.

> In other words, is there a real life difference in how
> quickly the end user receives a security patch?

OMG. The "real life difference" is astoundingly fast for Android,
badgolferman, particularly compared to how inexorably slow iOS updates are.

It's now done over the Internet.
Seamlessly.

We've had endless detailed discussions about this on the Android group for
years running badgolferman. You just don't read the news papers, I guess.

The updates are so seamless and so quick that the _only_ way you can tell
is you have to check the versions of dozens upon dozens of core modules.

Ask Andy Burns, for example. He and I spent weeks discussing how to tell
which modules Google has updated. There are many. And it's all seamless.

And that's only _one_ layer of Android that is seamlessly updated, almost
instantly, the moment Google has the bug identified and a fix prepared.

If you don't read the news, you won't understand a word I said above
because I can't update you on a decade of progress in a single post.

Suffice to say I choose my words sagaciously when I term the iOS release
mechanism as a throwback to the Paleolithic Stone Age of smartphone OSs.

It's no wonder the iPhone has more zero day bugs than any smartphone in
history, half of which are exploited long before Apple gets around to
releasing its primitive monolithic static operating system updates.

We've covered this _many times_ on the Apple newsgroups, even.
So it's odd that you don't remember what we've covered many times.

Intelligent people have the innate capacity to comprehend details.

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> I remember you initially questioned my
> characterization of "forever" as the length of time the mainstream/treble
> updates occurred - where we concluded - at that time - there were _layers_
> of updates for Android, some of which have no known stated end of life.

[...]

> The main question, always though, is how do we even _know_ when Google is
> updating our phones, because it's hard to tell since it's done seamlessly.
>
> Can you tell when Google updates your project mainstream components?
> I can't.

I'm glad I read ahead, as that was mainly what I was going to reply above.

I do still own my older Pixel3, it stopped getting "version upgrades" in
october 2021 with android 12, it did receive a "supposedly final" minor
update in january 2022, then another in february 2022, afaik that's the
last update I installed on it, but now it seems there was an even later
update in june 2022 to add VoLTE support.

I expect that june update will be the normal A/B seamless type as that's
what I've always seen Pixels use, I'll see if it gets any APEX style
"component upgrades" newer than last june ... now where did I put the phone?

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 05.02.23 um 09:20 schrieb Andy Burns:

> I do still own my older Pixel3, it stopped getting "version upgrades" in
> october 2021 with android 12, it did receive a "supposedly final" minor
> update in january 2022, then another in february 2022, afaik that's the
> last update I installed on it, but now it seems there was an even later
> update in june 2022 to add VoLTE support.
>
> I expect that june update will be the normal A/B seamless type as that's
> what I've always seen Pixels use, I'll see if it gets any APEX style
> "component upgrades" newer than last june ... now where did I put the phone?

You must live in a completely different Pixel-world than I do. All
OS-updates are a pain even very small ones. That already started under
my Pixel 4 with Android 11 or 12 roughly two years ago. My Pixel 7 is
not better at all.

What is seamless are app-updates.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

[Andy Burns]

Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> You must live in a completely different Pixel-world than I do. All
> OS-updates are a pain even very small ones.

Do you mean problems caused by an upgrade, or problems with the upgrade
mechanism?

I had the former where november's update caused my battery life to
plummet and had to live with more frequent charging for a month until
the december update fixed the issue, and improved battery monitoring.

I find the mechanism really is painless, let it download by itself when
one is available, it "preinstalls" into the relevant A/B slot in the
background then it prompts you to reboot to activate the opposite slot,
which takes what, 30 seconds?

Older Nexus updates were not seamless, they only got installed during
the reboot, then the phone spent ages optimising APKs.

If feeling impatient to receive an update, go to
settings/system/systeupdate and force it to check if one is there ...

It does seem to download the "Play System" upgdates in the background,
but never prompts to reboot for them, I have to go
settings/aboutphone/androidversion/playsystem to get it to tell me that
a reboot is required. But I never notice anything earth-shattering from
applying those, though google describe some of them as critical most months.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 05.02.23 um 11:35 schrieb Andy Burns:

> Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> You must live in a completely different Pixel-world than I do. All
>> OS-updates are a pain even very small ones.
>
> Do you mean problems caused by an upgrade, or problems with the upgrade
> mechanism?

Everything. The pain is caused by the "optimisation" after extremely
small OS-updates. That can easily take 20 minutes.

[badgolferman]

Andy Burnelli wrote:

>We've covered this _many times_ on the Apple newsgroups, even.
>So it's odd that you don't remember what we've covered many times.

Hello Arlen,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain this stuff again.
Fortunately it appears you don't mind repeating yourself many times.
Unfortunately though...

-- I don't have a memory like a steel trap as you do. Nothing ever
escapes yours.
-- I don't read every post on the newsgroup. Once Jolly Roger gets
involved I know the discussion has reached toilet level.
-- I'm not subscribed to the Android groups.

[nospam]

In article <trnd7u$2c43g$1...@dont-email.me>, badgolferman

<REMOVETHISb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> So does Android release these updates faster and directly to the end user
> or must they wait for the phone manufacturer to perform their tests before
> it gets installed?

yes. the device manufacturer decides when (or if) to release any
updates. some stuff is pushed directly from google, regardless of
device, but not all.

since google controls the google pixel series, those get the release
first (and generally for the longest time).

<https://www.androidcentral.com/phones/why-does-it-take-so-long-for-my-p
hone-to-receive-android-updates>
Google doesn't distribute Android as a piece of software that's ready
for use. Companies that make devices that use it.

It almost has to be this way because there are thousands of different
Android-powered devices and they all use an individually modified
version of the operating system. Even devices that are in the same
family, like the Galaxy S22+ and the Galaxy S22 Ultra, use a
different version of the software because the hardware is different.
The way Google licenses the Android branding ensures that all of them
can run every app you find in the Google Play Store.
...
As you can see there are many individual steps involved before a new
version of Android can be sent out to your phone. Each one of them
takes time to get done. Carriers also play a part in the update
process because they need to evaluate any effect features and changes
will have on their networks. If you bought your phone from a carrier
store, it can slow things down even further.


<https://www.androidpolice.com/when-will-my-phone-get-android-13/>
Google shot the starting pistol on Android 13's rollout in
mid-August, with stable builds now available for supported Pixel
devices. The company has also updated the Android Open Source
Project with the new version. Other Android manufacturers will be
responsible for adapting the new software to their devices. That
process will take some time, but a few plucky OEMs have been making
their speedy efforts known. We'll update this article with pertinent
information on a periodic basis.

> In other words, is there a real life difference in how
> quickly the end user receives a security patch?

very much so.

it's a major reason why nearly all ios devices are running the latest
version, versus android which lags greatly.

[nospam]

In article <xn0nxqbhg...@reader443.eternal-september.org>,

badgolferman <REMOVETHISb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Andy Burnelli wrote:
> >We've covered this _many times_ on the Apple newsgroups, even.
> >So it's odd that you don't remember what we've covered many times.
>
> Hello Arlen,
>
> Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain this stuff again.

incorrectly.

> Fortunately it appears you don't mind repeating yourself many times.

he thinks if he repeats it enough, people will believe it.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 05.02.23 um 13:27 schrieb nospam:

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-02-04 23:11, Alan wrote:

> Don't worry about it.
>
> If iOS updates were routinely smaller than Android updates, Arlen would
> find some reason that larger was better.

This.

Which is really why everyone should refrain from answering it at all.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

[sms]

On 2/5/2023 4:13 AM, badgolferman wrote:

<snip>

> -- I don't read every post on the newsgroup. Once Jolly Roger gets
> involved I know the discussion has reached toilet level.

That's a limitation of Usenet readers where you can filter out trolls
but you can't filter out the responses to trolls without filtering out
the respondent completely.

--
“How beautiful it is to stay silent when someone expects you to be
enraged.” ― Giada De Laurentiis

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 05 Feb 2023 07:27:43 -0500, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

I guess he thinks he's Goebbels.

[badgolferman]

sms wrote:

>On 2/5/2023 4:13 AM, badgolferman wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>-- I don't read every post on the newsgroup. Once Jolly Roger gets
>>involved I know the discussion has reached toilet level.
>
>That's a limitation of Usenet readers where you can filter out trolls
>but you can't filter out the responses to trolls without filtering
>out the respondent completely.

My newsreader Xananews has very powerful filtering capabilities but I
don't use them, except in a.h.r. were some bozo named Peeler feels it
necessary to respond to every single message with absolutely nothing
but drivel. I think he had 508 messages last month. And of course
NewsTap can't filter out anybody, merely label the message with a
color. In any case, I don't need my newsreader to censor anybody here,
I can choose whether to read their message or not. Occasionally I will
look at Jolly Roger's messages to see if he's grown up yet but I'm
really losing hope.

[Jolly Roger]

He's definitely following that playbook.

[Andy Burnelli]

badgolferman wrote:

> Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain this stuff again.

I'm sorry.

I apologize for getting frustrated with you badgolferman. It's just that
I've never met people in my life who are so resistant to the truth.

I've graduated from the best schools in the country, and worked alongside
the smartest people in Silicon Valley for decades - and I was kind of
hoping you'd be in that category of someone who can remember details.

The fact is iOS updates in a monolithic manner while _all_ other common
consumer operating systems update in pieces, using asynchronous layers.

> Fortunately it appears you don't mind repeating yourself many times.

A apologize for getting frustrated that you didn't know the simplest most
basic most well-known most common things about how Android updates.

Suffice to say nobody on this newsgroup to my knowledge except me and Andy
Burns (who knows a LOT more than I do about it) knows how Android updates.

> Unfortunately though...

If you are getting all your news from the likes of Alan Baker, Alan Browne,
Jolly Roger, Steve, and nospam, then you are NOT getting it from a reliable
source.

> -- I don't have a memory like a steel trap as you do.

I'm not the only one with a "steel trap" memory on this newsgroup though.
Look in this same thread at the three responses from Andy Burns please.

Here's one where Joerg spewed rot he likely just made up, yet even so, Andy
Burns, unlike me, rather patiently responded in detail to Joerg's concerns.
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fpIACZI6RCc/m/AkjQjYWJAgAJ>

Bear in mind Andy Burns knows far more about this stuff than I ever will.
So if you read nothing else on this topic, read Andy Burns' posts please.
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fpIACZI6RCc/m/I7l4vaFbAgAJ>

Andy and I spent weeks of our lives trying to figure out how to tell when
Android has been updated - it's that freakin' seamless, badgolferman.

We can't even tell (unless we look at the specific app subversions
of dozens of core Android modules which are updated under the covers).

> Nothing ever escapes yours.

It is true that my intelligence and apt knowledge stems from what is the
one thing the iKooks and Steve do not have, which is a memory for details.

It's common, for example, to tell an iKook like nospam or Alan Browne
something and then, days, weeks & years later - they will deny it again.

In fact, I've never met, in person, people _that_ incredibly ignorant.

They believe stuff that wasn't even true two decades ago, and they hold it
dear for the rest of their lives - truth be damned - they're that stupid.

While I expect morons like Joerg or Jolly Roger or Lewis to misunderstand
everything, I wouldn't have expected those like Alan Browne to be as stupid
as he is - nor even nospam or Steve - but they're all incredibly ignorant.

Suffice to say if you're getting all your data from them - it's wrong.
Why? Because Steve & nospam have an agenda & Alan Browne is just stupid.

> -- I don't read every post on the newsgroup.

I do. Well, of course, not every post. But every fact.
Facts are lost on the iKooks. But I retain facts.

That's how I can aptly summarize iOS as a primitive Paleolithic monolith.
Many of the horrible problems with iOS stem from that one simple fact.

> Once Jolly Roger gets
> involved I know the discussion has reached toilet level.

This is very true. Or Lewis. Or Joerg. Or Alan Browne. Or Alan Baker.
If you added up their IQs, the sum total would still would be below normal.

> -- I'm not subscribed to the Android groups.

I don't expect you to believe me just because I said it, other than for you
to realize I have _never_ steered you wrong - but I do expect you to
understand what Andy Burns and I have been saying since we say the truth.

Neither of us cares to defend Google when we both claim in this very thread
that many of the Android updates last longer than anyone even knows, and,
in addition, many other Android updates are so seamless, we can't even tell
that they happened without digging into the code to find the subversion
changes of dozens upon dozens of key critical core Android modules.

Please at least read _this_ one post on this thread from Andy about that.
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fpIACZI6RCc/m/aaQA6CSCAgAJ>

In summary, I apologize for getting frustrated that you didn't know the
first thing of how iOS or Android update. I can't believe people don't know
what seems to me everyone knows, but that's what Apple newsgroups are...

[Andy Burnelli]

Ken Blake wrote:

> I guess he thinks he's Goebbels.

What do you know about Project Mainline, Ken Blake?
HINT: Nothing.

Have you, Ken Blake, ever, in your entire life, added even one tidbit of
on-topic technical value to _any_ Usenet thread in the history of Usenet?

Since I _do_ provide on-topic technical value, unlike you, Ken Blake,
I will continue forward by adding that value which you consider propaganda.

The fact remains that the iKooks like nospam and Jolly Roger don't even
know how iOS updates let alone that Android updates completely differently.

Intelligent people like Andy Burns have already said, in this very thread,
how fantastically seamless Android updates are, such that most of the time
you can't even tell that dozens of core Android modules were updated.

That happens under the covers, over the Internet, without the carriers.

Before you respond with your "Joseph Goebbels" idiocy, Ken Blake, read this
so that you can be updated on how Android is updated since Android 10.

*Everything you need to know about Android's Project Mainline*
<https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/>

That's way back from 2020, but it's clear neither you, nor Jolly Roger, nor
nospam, nor Alan Browne, nor even Steve or badgolferman, is aware of that.

It has been improved (and renamed multiple times) since then, such that
over two dozen core Android modules are seamlessly updated as we speak.

The update is so seamless, people who _look_ for them, like Andy Burns did,
can tell they've been updated but only if they look at the module versions.

That's how seamless the forever updates are for Android nowadays, Ken
Blake. After having said all this, how much of that will your brain retain?
--
People who are stupid, like Ken Blake, Alan Browne, Alan Baker, Jolly
Roger, Joerg Lorenz, and, well even Steve, unfortunately, will never learn.

[Andy Burnelli]

Alan Browne wrote:

> Which is really why everyone should refrain from answering it at all.

It's important for adults to note Alan Browne owns such a kindergarten
brain, the _best_ insult he can come up with is to call a person, "it".

Here's my _adult_ response to Alan Browne's childish taunts...
Alan: Please tell us, Alan... *What do you know about Project Mainline?*

Here's a hint:
*About modular system components*
<https://source.android.com/docs/core/ota/modular-system>

[Alan]

On 2023-02-05 11:46, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> badgolferman wrote:
>
>> Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain this stuff again.
>
> I'm sorry.

For being such a colossal ass?

>
> I apologize for getting frustrated with you badgolferman. It's just that
> I've never met people in my life who are so resistant to the truth.

So it's an apology...

...where you blame the person you've wronged.

Got it.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 05.02.23 um 20:41 schrieb Jolly Roger:

> On 2023-02-05, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Feb 2023 07:27:43 -0500, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> he thinks if he repeats it enough, people will believe it.
>>
>> I guess he thinks he's Goebbels.
>
> He's definitely following that playbook.

Hart wie Krupp-Stahl und schnell wie Windhunde?

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 05.02.23 um 20:25 schrieb sms:

> On 2/5/2023 4:13 AM, badgolferman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> -- I don't read every post on the newsgroup. Once Jolly Roger gets
>> involved I know the discussion has reached toilet level.
>
> That's a limitation of Usenet readers where you can filter out trolls
> but you can't filter out the responses to trolls without filtering out
> the respondent completely.

Certainly you can but once more you have no clue how it works.
Hint: "Ignore subthread"

[nospam]

In article <k4af3v...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger

<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> >>> Fortunately it appears you don't mind repeating yourself many times.
> >>
> >>he thinks if he repeats it enough, people will believe it.
> >
> > I guess he thinks he's Goebbels.
>
> He's definitely following that playbook.

both of the resident trolls do.

[badgolferman]

Andy Burnelli wrote:

>In summary, I apologize for getting frustrated that you didn't know
>the first thing of how iOS or Android update. I can't believe people
>don't know what seems to me everyone knows, but that's what Apple
>newsgroups are...

Well, I never claimed to be anything but an end user. If my phone is
inferior and susceptible to security risks, I will deal with it when
the time comes. I just want it to work properly and do the things I
want. For the most part my iPhone 14 achieves those goals, but as you
know I can find shortcomings and annoyances with it as well. As I've
mentioned before there are certain apps on my phone I find essential
which aren't available on Android, and I don't want to learn a new
operating system. If that makes me ignorant and frustrates you then we
will have to both live with that. In the meantime I find you
entertaining and informative so I will continue to watch your messages,
but I have no inclination to switch to Android in the near future.

[nospam]

In article <xn0nxqr9w...@reader443.eternal-september.org>,

badgolferman <REMOVETHISb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As I've
> mentioned before there are certain apps on my phone I find essential
> which aren't available on Android,

how can that be? i read here in this very newsgroup that android does
things that ios can't, in more than 150 ways. is that wrong?

[badgolferman]

NewsTap is not available on Google Play and the Android newsreader
alternatives are far inferior. That’s just one.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> He's definitely following that playbook.
>
> both of the resident trolls do.

I have an agenda, nospam, and everything I post supports my agenda.
1. To answer questions and to learn from others (like Andy Burns).
2. And to prove iKooks (and Steve) for the feculence you truly are.

Everyone has an agenda, where my agenda is simply the truth.
Yours, nospam, is to defend everything Apple, to the death.

Steve's is always running for office, so to speak.
His actions show he is a political animal.

Both you and he twist the truth to serve your purposes.
For example, he used false claims about FCC maps for years.

You make false claims for every flaw in Apple products.
That wouldn't be so bad if there weren't so many flaws.

How many imaginary iOS apps have you brazenly fabricated nospam?
Wi-fi debugging. On-device firewalls. Tor Browser. GPS spoofers.

The others, like Joerg, Alan Browne, Alan Baker, Chris & Jolly Roger don't
matter as they simply hate that their whole lives everyone has told them
they're stupid - and then I tell them the same thing they were told.

There are a few, like badgolferman & Ant who aren't iKooks, and they're not
political animals. They just don't know anything about iPhones or iOS.

Back to you and Steve, the main issue with both of you is that you have no
morals. No fealty to truth. No adherence to facts. No shame whatsoever.

Me? You all _hate_ me.
Steve because I show he's wrong, and you because I show you're wrong.

I don't mind you hate me because the worst thing you can ever say about me
is that you _hate_ that you can't find any facts I say to be wrong.

Bear in mind the reason my facts are never wrong isn't because I'm likely
smarter than all of you combined - but simply because I don't say things
that aren't facts.

That's why you hate me, nospam.
And that's OK.

I have two goals on this newsgroup:
1. To answer questions and to learn from others (like Andy Burns).
2. To prove you iKooks (and Steve) for the filth you truly are.

To that end, here is a reference you iKooks & Steve need to read.
*How Project Mainline is solving Android¢s fragmentation problem*
<https://blog.esper.io/what-is-project-mainline/>
--
HINT: You won't read it because you prefer to remain ignorant.

[Andy Burnelli]

badgolferman wrote:

> Well, I never claimed to be anything but an end user.

Hi badgolferman,

You are an end user. As is Ant. As am I. We just want to know the facts.

What's _different_ about us, from the iKooks in particular, is we don't
gloat when Microsoft, Google, Canonical or Apple make huge profits off us.

For any of them to make ungodly profits off of us would be a bad thing.
It would mean we're stupid.

We can accept the good and the bad about each of those companies.
But we don't religiously defend any one of them to the death.

Specifically, unlike the iKooks, we won't lie for them.
We have morals. Honor. Fealty to the truth. Allegiance to the facts.

That's because our ego isn't built into their operating systems.
We don't care what the truth happens to be.

We just want to know what the truth _is_.

> If my phone is inferior and susceptible to security risks, I will
> deal with it when the time comes.

You don't understand me if that's what you think is the message.
The message that I convey is not that - my message is the truth.

The truth can be good. It can be bad. It can be a bit of both.
But it's _always_ the truth.

That's what separates both you and me from the likes of Steve & nospam.

All I want from _you_ is for _you_ to understand the truth.
Nothing more. Nothing less.

> I just want it to work properly and do the things I
> want. For the most part my iPhone 14 achieves those goals, but as you
> know I can find shortcomings and annoyances with it as well.

Again, I don't know if you understand me by you explaining that, because
I'm the same as you are with Android, Windows, iOS, and Linux.

I'm not in love with Microsoft.
I'm not in love with Google.
I'm not in love with Apple.
I'm not in love with Canonical.

My allegiance is to truth; not to any one of those motherships.
I tell the truth for all of them.

On an Android newsgroup, on a Linux newsgroup, on a Windows newsgroup and
on an Apple newsgroup - I simply tell the truth by providing the facts, and
by providing assessments of those facts (which people can disagree with).

If I make a mistake - I admit it.
You know this to be true.

You know _everything_ I'm saying to be true.

What frustrated me was how little you knew about both iOS and Android,
and that people were feeding you completely incorrect information.

I apologize for being frustrated with you and hence being short.
I wrote that off the cuff - as I write this - so it's from my heart.

You know how _different_ I am from Steve and the iKooks.
*Simply stated... I have morals. They don't.*

> As I've
> mentioned before there are certain apps on my phone I find essential
> which aren't available on Android, and I don't want to learn a new
> operating system.

What app is it that you feel the functionality doesn't exist on Android?
I'll look to see if it does.

You do not have to take me up on this offer, but it's my assessment (note
the difference between a fact and an assessment of facts please) that there
will almost never (if ever) be any app _functionality_ on iOS (all by its
itty bitty self) that isn't (usually already) on Android.

I stated the logical sensible factual reasons for that assessment, which
can be (too-simply) summarized as "Apple locks apps out; Google can't".

I'm quite sure you have "apps" on iOS which aren't on Android; but I'm not
so sure you have app _functionality_ on iOS which isn't on Android for the
reasons I stated above.

Having said that, I'm quite sure there are similar app functionalities on
both platforms (e.g., news apps) which you might like better - but that's a
completely different argument that I am not ever going to defend as that's
never what I'm saying.

I'm also quite sure there are apps that play nice in the walled garden,
i.e., with your Mac for example, that aren't on Android; but again, that's
why I'm always speaking of app functionality on iOS not on Android all by
its itty bitty self since Apple does play well inside the walled garden.

With all that in mind, you just saying what you said without mentioning the
apps is like saying your neighbors are nicer than are mine - where I can't
disprove or prove your statement until and unless you tell me the app.

Steve does the same thing, and, of course, it's nospam's signature to claim
every app that ever existed on iOS is better than any app for Android.

What app is it that you feel the functionality doesn't exist on Android?

> If that makes me ignorant and frustrates you then we
> will have to both live with that.

I'm sorry for intimating you were ignorant of how iOS and Android update.

You have to understand I've worked with super intelligent people my whole
life, and now that I'm retired living in the mountains, I am more on the
Internet than I ever was - and well - the world just isn't the same.

What frustrates me with you was that I _expect_ Steve and the iKooks to be
completely ignorant of anything that's ever said about Android or iOS.

But I had expected you to know more than you do.
It's my fault. Not yours.

I apologize.

> In the meantime I find you
> entertaining and informative so I will continue to watch your messages,
> but I have no inclination to switch to Android in the near future.

I have absolutely zero desire to be entertaining, and, in fact, I've said
many times that the iKooks are on Usenet merely for their own amusement.

I'm sure I entertain people like Alan Browne who probably has an IQ no
higher than 50, but that's like saying kicking dogs amuses Alan Browne.

To be entertaining to an iKook takes nothing more than a moving slinky.

What I want to be is informative, and I wish to stress nobody on this
newsgroup (or any newsgroup for that matter) has ever found my stated facts
to be wrong.

If I say that iOS has more zero-day holes than Android, that's a fact.
Of course, the iKooks won't _believe_ that fact.
They'll scream bloody murder, in fact, saying that it's wrong.

They'll ask for proof. And then ask again. And again. And again.
They'll _never_ click on the links that I provide backing up that fact.

Hence, what _you_ see, is me stating a fact that is hard for you to
believe, which is that iOS has more zero-day holes than Android, and then
all you see are a zillion iKooks denying that fact.

It never occurs to you that the iKooks can never supply a counter fact.
That is the part that frustrated me about you, badgolferman.

You _believe_ the iKooks... not all of them... and not all the time.
But for you to not believe me _because_ an iKook denied facts - is
troublesome for me about you (or about anyone).

You have to assess the _credibility_ of the person.
My credibility is stellar.

If, perchance, I'm wrong, I'll simply admit it and learn from it.
That's why I'm so knowledgeable badgolferman. Because I care.

In addition, I defer to those who know far more than I do, which,
sometimes, actually is Steve or nospam (but never the others).

For example, I often not only buy but recommend to others the hardware that
Steve researches, and if nospam ever says the truth, I defer to him too.

But what you need to understand about me, badgolferman, is that I'm a
person who cares that people get the _correct_ answer, whatever it is.

People like nospam and Steve have no loyalty to the truth.

If they speak the truth, it's only an accident if truth lines up with their
agenda.

[Alan]

On 2023-02-05 15:28, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> badgolferman wrote:
>
>> Well, I never claimed to be anything but an end user.
>
> Hi badgolferman,
>
> You are an end user. As is Ant. As am I. We just want to know the facts.
>
> What's _different_ about us, from the iKooks in particular, is we don't
> gloat when Microsoft, Google, Canonical or Apple make huge profits off us.

You just whine like a little girl that Apple makes good profits...

...because people like their products.

<snip your yammer>

[nospam]

In article <trpe2p$3gae1$1...@paganini.bofh.team>, Andy Burnelli

<nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

> You have to understand I've worked with super intelligent people my whole
> life

too bad you didn't learn a thing from any of them.

[Andy Burnelli]

badgolferman wrote:

>>> As I've
>>> mentioned before there are certain apps on my phone I find essential
>>> which aren't available on Android,
>>
>> how can that be? i read here in this very newsgroup that android does
>> things that ios can't, in more than 150 ways. is that wrong?
>>
>
> NewsTap is not available on Google Play and the Android newsreader
> alternatives are far inferior. That¢s just one.

Hi badgolferman,

Oh Jesus. Lord have mercy on my soul. What is wrong with people's brains?
*That's just one?*

Are you taking all your cues now from Alan Browne? Alan Baker? Snit? Who?
Certainly you haven't understood a word _I_ said on that topic.

I expect nospam to be ignorant, badgolferman.
But I do not expect you to say something _that_ stupid. Seriously.

Why don't you understand the English language badgolferman?
I don't mean that as an insult - I mean it seriously.

How can you so badly misconstrue what I asked of you?
What part of the English language do you _not_ understand?

You need to understand the basic structure of the words in the English
language when they write things like you and nospam just wrote above.

*That's _not_ one* for Christs sake.

What you wrote above is simply that you happen to like one implementation
of a newsreader than another, which could happen even if you were comparing
app functionality within the same platform, let alone crossing platforms.

*That's just one.*

Great. There are a billion others too. Steve, for example, happens to like
the functionality of the Apple news app over that of Android news apps.

*That's just one.*

And nospam happens to like the functionality of the Apple fingerprint
reader over the Android fingerprint readers.

*That's just one.*

How did _any_ of you get through college thinking that liking one similar
app functionality over another is the same thing as not having the choice
of any of that app functionality?

*That's just one.*

It's not.

In fact... *That's _not_ just one*.

For you to day "That's just one" is just ridiculous when it doesn't answer
the question of what app functionality is _completely missing_ from iOS.

I don't own the social skills to even begin to communicate with people who
can't tell the difference between an app that you like better than another
versus a functionality that doesn't exist.

It's a basic component of the English language to understand.
And yet you don't understand?

Why not?

I get it nospam is too stupid to understand.
And Steve has his own political agenda.

Both have no morals.
Both feel no compunction for the truth.

But you?
Why you?

Why can't you understand a concept that is as simple as major functionality
(such as gps mock location for example) that is on one platform, which is
_completely missing_ from the other platform?

What you are doing, in effect, is the same as if I said I like done gps
spoofer better than another, and then, after having said that perfectly
reasonable statement, I then concluded that gps spoofing doesn't exist.

That would be an illogical statement from me, right?
And yet, you feel no shame in saying the same thing?
*That's just one?*

Seriously. That is NOT just one.
Both platforms have newsreader functionality.

You happen to _like_ one over the other, and I happen to like one of them
over the other too - but the app functionality exists on both platforms.

What I said very clearly was that there is likely zero app functionality on
iOS not already on Android for basic obvious well known reasons.
a. Apple _restricts_ app functionality on the app store;
b. Google does too - but Google can't restrict sideloading.

Since most app functionality comes from developers, they _can't_ put their
app on the Apple App Store or the Google App Store if the motherships don't
want them to - but - and this is the difference - with Android - any
typical user can sideload which is no harder or less safe than regular
loading. It's even easier and more safe - but let's not go there.

In summary, you need to retract "That's just one" if you are to be taken as
a credible adult who comprehends the basic structure of the English
language.

That's _not_ just one.

[Alan]

On 2023-02-05 15:55, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> badgolferman wrote:
>
>>>> As I've
>>>> mentioned before there are certain apps on my phone I find essential
>>>> which aren't available on Android,
>>>
>>> how can that be? i read here in this very newsgroup that android does
>>> things that ios can't, in more than 150 ways. is that wrong?
>>>
>>
>> NewsTap is not available on Google Play and the Android newsreader
>> alternatives are far inferior. That�s just one.
>
> Hi badgolferman,
>

> Oh Jesus. Lord...

...are you tedious!

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> As I've
>> mentioned before there are certain apps on my phone I find essential
>> which aren't available on Android,
>
> how can that be? i read here in this very newsgroup that android does
> things that ios can't, in more than 150 ways. is that wrong?

Why does nospam always prove to be ignorant of everything he says?

Being on this newsgroup is frustrating because you're all stupid.
I expect nospam to be stupid, but I was shocked that badgolferman is too.

I admit that I don't own the social skills to explain to people as
incredibly stupid as you seem to be when you can't comprehend that both
platforms have newsreaders.

They may suck on both platforms, and they might even suck a lot less on the
Apple platform; but merely liking one over the other doesn't change the
fact that newsreader app functionality is clearly on both platforms.

For badgolferman to deny that fact is just preposterous.
And for nospam to agree with that factual denial is just as ridiculous.

Does nobody on this Apple newsgroup understand a word of English?
a. There's a difference between _liking_ an app functionality over another,
b. Versus that app functionality being completely missing on the platform.

After all these years, _none_ of you strange people can understand that?

The fact remain salient that Apple blocks app functionality and so does
google but Google can't stop the developers from posting apps which users
can easily sideload.

That's the _biggest_ difference between the platforms and it's huge.

As a direct result of that fact above, nobody yet has ever been able to
list an app functionality on iOS not (usually long ago) already on Android.

If you could - you would.
But you can't.

I was sincerely hoping that badgolferman would tell me of an app
functionality that iOS had, all by its itty bitty self, that wasn't on
Android - and the fact he thinks newsreaders aren't on Android is a
problem.

Newsreaders are on both platforms.
I care for the truth so I will ask the simple question again.

What app functionality do you feel you need which you think is on Apple's
App Store but which isn't already (usually long ago) on one of Android's?
*Name just one*

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> You have to understand I've worked with super intelligent people my whole
>> life
>
> too bad you didn't learn a thing from any of them.

When you concurred with badgolferman's utterly ridiculous statement that
newsreader functionality didn't exist on Android, I knew you were lying.

You don't believe a word you say, nospam - because honor isn't your shtick.
But I think badgolferman actually _believes_ what he just said. Sigh.

What is bothersome to me was that it's clear badgolferman actually
_believes_ that there is no newsreader functionality on Android.

Based on... um... based on... ummmmm... absolutely zero facts whatsoever.

I believe badgolferman believes newsreader functionality isn't on Android.
I just do not have the social skills to get it into his head that it does.

The end result is that there will likely _never_ be any app functionality
on iOS that isn't already (usually long ago) on Android simply because
a. Apple and Google may restrict the app functionality they don't like,
b. But Google can't stop a typical user from easily sideloading,
c. While Apple not only can, but Apple does.

That none of you understand a word I said above is not a reflection on me.

[nospam]

In article <trph04$3l420$1...@paganini.bofh.team>, Andy Burnelli

<nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> When you concurred with badgolferman's utterly ridiculous statement that
> newsreader functionality didn't exist on Android,

nobody said anything close to that.

> We know I am lying.

ftfy.

[badgolferman]

Andy Burnelli <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> badgolferman wrote:
>
>>>> As I've
>>>> mentioned before there are certain apps on my phone I find essential
>>>> which aren't available on Android,
>>>
>>> how can that be? i read here in this very newsgroup that android does
>>> things that ios can't, in more than 150 ways. is that wrong?
>>>
>>
>> NewsTap is not available on Google Play and the Android newsreader

>> alternatives are far inferior. Thatขs just one.

Arlen, I was responding to nospam’s question about what app iOS has which
Google Play does not. I was not talking about functionality.

Another app I must have is FindMy to be able to find my son who is
currently at University of Virginia. He has had many medical problems such
as spontaneous pneumothorax over the years and ends up in the hospital on
occasion. Unfortunately some of these medical emergencies have happened
when he has been out camping and we have been able to reach him just
because I was able to find him.

It seems as if you think I’m trying to antagonize you or something. Or
maybe you feel I’m just an idiot who is below you. I assure you I have no
desire to get on your bad side, but if you’ve lost patience with me then I
will have to be placed on The List of Arlen.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> When you concurred with badgolferman's utterly ridiculous statement that
>> newsreader functionality didn't exist on Android,
>
> nobody said anything close to that.

The fact you brazenly lie shows you have no respect for the truth, nospam.

I have provided many well-documented instances of app functionality on
Android which is impossible to find in the Apple App Store, nospam.

Items such as automatic call recording, graphical wi-fi debugging,
system-wide on-device firewalls & gps mock location spoofing to name a few.

All you & Steve (and now badgolferman?) can do is _lie_ that you know of
secret known-only-to-you hidden app functionality on iOS not on Android?

WTF.
Either you're all pitifully brazen cowardly filthy liars, or not, nospam.
You tell me what you are by backing up your own words, nospam.

You have _never_ named what you claim you can name (but never do).
(And no, pasting hundreds of meaningless trademarks is not functionality.)

You have no absolutely respect for the truth.
Steve also has no respect for the truth.

I just didn't expect badgolferman to have no respect for the truth.
That's what floored me.

For you and badgolferman to claim that newsreader app functionality exists
on iOS and yet you claim that similar newsreader functionality is
impossible to directly load or sideload on Android is stooping to a new low
level.

Even for you, a filthy disgustingly dishonest liar in all respects.
I just didn't expect it when badgolferman followed your lead, that's all.

[Andy Burnelli]

badgolferman wrote:

> I was responding to nospam's question about what app iOS has which
> Google Play does not.

Hi badgolferman,

The only thing I expect from you is for you to act like a real adult.
Hence, I speak with you _differently_ than I do the child-like iKooks.

I keep the message simple for the iKooks. I dumb it down.
Even then, they can't comprehend - but that's _why_ they are iKooks.

When I ask the iKooks if there is any iOS app functionality all by its itty
bitty self that is not on Android, they claim there is tons - but they're
all filthy despicable liars who simply _hate_ that they don't know of any.

When you (or Steve) claim there is iOS app functionality impossible to find
in Android, I _trust_ that you didn't just make that up, badgolferman.

That's why you can always expect me to _ask_ you to back up your claim.
I only care for facts. I only care for the truth.

If there is iOS app functionality that is either native to iOS or that is
on the Apple App store that doesn't exist on Android, I want to know.

But you claiming newsreader functionality isn't on Android is ridiculous.

> I was not talking about functionality.

When I say that app functionality exists on Android which is impossible for
a typical user to load on iOS (such as automatic call recording, graphical

wi-fi debugging, system-wide on-device firewalls & gps mock location

spoofing to name a few), I _am_ talking about functionality.

The reason is that the obvious lack of _any_ iOS app functionality puts the
lie to statements of nospam and the rest of the iKooks (including Steve).

Remember, I have two goals on this newsgroup, one of which is to learn and
disseminate - the other is to show the filthy iKooks for what they are.

For decades, these filthy liars have poisoned Usenet with their lies.
And I simply am proving, for the permanent Usenet record, what they are.

Having said that, I had never expected you to be one of them, and I hope
you simply misunderstood what it means to say app functionality.

Bear in mind, I'm well aware that if you had a hundred apps, you'd like one
over the others - but that's NOT the same thing as saying the app
functionality is completely missing.

There's a _reason_ I aptly choose the word "crippled" in describing iOS.
*When something is _completely missing_, it's crippled*

My point is that iOS is crippled by the complete lack of functionality.
And yet, that complete lack does NOT extend in the other direction.

There is _nothing_ on iOS that isn't (usually long ago) already on Android
(by way of app functionality all by its itty bitty self, easily installed).

I don't care if you believe that assessment or if you dispute it; but if
you're going to dispute it, a newsreader is not the way to dispute it.

(Sucky) newsreader functionality exists on both platforms. Period.

> Another app I must have is FindMy to be able to find my son who is
> currently at University of Virginia.

Android doesn't have "FindMy" functionality?

Hell, I used that kind of capability to find my own kids when they were in
college and didn't call so many years ago that I've forgotten how I did it.

Are you seriously claiming there is no "findmy" functionality on Android?

> He has had many medical problems such
> as spontaneous pneumothorax over the years and ends up in the hospital on
> occasion.

I have kids. I have grandkids. I understand medical problems.

And I understand worrying about the kids. But you can't be seriously
claiming that there is no "FindMy" functionality on Android, can you be?

> Unfortunately some of these medical emergencies have happened
> when he has been out camping and we have been able to reach him just
> because I was able to find him.

I guess I pegged you wrong in that I thought you understood what
functionality means, but it seems I need to explain it yet again.

For Steve or nospam or for any of the iKooks to be filthy liars is to be
expected, so I expect them all to brazenly fabricate imaginary
functionality for iOS that they "claim" isn't on Android.

It always turns out that the functionality (e.g., gps spoofing) doesn't
exist on iOS - but it's so entrenched in Android that it's part of the
native operating system.

It's why iOS is crippled badgolferman. SO it's a VERY IMPORTANT POINT.
In fact, it's one of the MOST IMPORTANT DIFFERENCES between the two.

To put the most important difference between iOS & Android too simply:
*iOS is crippled; Android is not*

Since it's an extremely important point if you care to discuss the
differences between Android and iOS, for you to claim you know of an app
functionality on iOS that is comopletely missing on Android is key.

What is it?
I want to know.

And no, for nospam to paste yet again a hundred meaningless Apple
trademarks is NOT in any way a description of the single most important iOS
app functionality that people claim is on iOS but not on Android.

All I'm asking you to do is three words, badgolferman:
*Name just one*

> It seems as if you think I'm trying to antagonize you or something.

No. I do NOT think that at all. Not in the least. You're not an iKook.
And you're not a political animal, which is why Steve is a filthy liar.

I only expect you to do one thing, badgolferman.
Act like an adult.

What happened was I _trusted_ that you'd act like an adult.
That's all.

I expected you to honor truth.
That's all.

I expected you to back up your own words.
That's all.

After all, that's what I do.

> Or maybe you feel I'm just an idiot who is below you.

If you act like an adult, you'll _never_ be considered below me by me.
However, it does surprise me how little you know about iOS & Android.

What you've said in this thread alone, unfortunately, and to put it
bluntly, indicates that you've been listening to the iKooks too long.

Almost everything the iKooks claim about Apple, badgolferman, is not only a
lie, and not only a brazen lie, but most of it is a filthy despicable lie.

It's what iKooks are. Every one is a detestably contemptible liar.
Steve is also a reprehensible loathsome disreputable liar - but for
furtherance eof his own personal political goals in Cupertino.

I simply had expected you to know more than you actually do, badgolferman.
My dealing with you was predicated that I had expected you to be different.

> I assure you I have no desire to get on your bad side,

You and I and Ant, are likely the _only_ people who habitually frequent the
iOS newsgroup who are not vile shameful liars, badgolferman. On the Android
newsgroup people like Andy Burns, s|b, vanguard, jab, newscrawler, and a
few others are similarly reasonable sensible normal adults with normal IQ.

If David Empson were still around, and Michelle (who kindly gave me my
NewsTap license, by the way) were still around, bless their hearts, I would
have listed them also.

Notice how extremely rare people like you and Ant and I are on the Apple
newsgroup, while people like Andy Burns and Vanguard are just as critical
for disseminating knowledge on the Android newsgroups.

Without us, this newsgroup would be a cesspool of the iKook low life scum.
You can't get "on my bad side" without acting like they do. And you don't.

> but if you've lost patience with me then I

> will have to be placed on the list.

I have no list since I know almost everyone by heart, badgolferman.
Have I ever mentioned that my grasp of detail is excellent? :)

It's amazing, actually, to discuss something with, oh, say, nospam, and he
claims, for example, that 5G isn't something Apple is worried about, and
then a year later after Apple basically falls on their sword for 5G, nospam
doesn't even remember his own words.

How many times have I had to post nospam's own words which he denies saying
even as it's like a Chinese balloon that everyone can just look up to see?

Anyway, my goal is to get to the facts. It's truth that I want to both
disseminate, and learn. I can teach you the truth. I can learn from you.

I'm never afraid of the truth because my belief systems are based on fact.

If you know of _any_ app functionality that you believe is on iOS and not
on Android, just let me know what that is. But it's not a newsreader.

Nor is it a "find my phone" or "find someone else's phone" either.
Android has that. iOS has that. It's on both platforms. Period.

I have opined that I can't find a single app functionality on iOS not on
Android and there are really good and logical reasons for that opinion.

Those reasons, summarized perhaps too simply for you below, are...
1. Apple restricts what apps can do that it allows on the App Store.
2. Google does too (but to a hugely lesser extent by all accounts).
3. Even so, independent _developers_ create most app functionality.
4. And they can easily publish for Android users (but not for iOS users).

Since I'm intelligent, knowledgeable, and rather well educated
badgolferman, I _expect_ you to comprehend the rationale I explained.

Do you at least _understand_ the four points that I said above?
--
NOTE: They're super important to understand because they form the
single most important difference between the two platforms.

[Andy Burnelli]

Andy Burnelli wrote:
> You have no absolutely respect for the truth.
> Steve also has no respect for the truth.

I just read a subsequent post from badgolferman and I don't think he lied.
I think badgolferman just didn't understand the question.

I apologize to badgolferman for my almost certainly getting him wrong.

I think badgolferman spoke of "findmy" and "newsreader" functionality
without realizing the point was that iOS is crippled compared to Android.

We're not talking minor "differences" in functionality between platforms.
We're talking that iOS is completely lacking - so badly that it's crippled.

I choose my words sagaciously. To be crippled means it's impossible to do.

In terms of "findmy" and "newsreaders", they're not impossible to do.
On either platform.

I am hopeful that badgolferman will spend some time understanding that one
of the most important differences (if not the most important difference)
between the two platforms is, in perhaps too succinct a summary...

*iOS is crippled; Android is not*

If iOS is NOT crippled, then someone (anyone!) will be able to name an app
functionality that iOS can do, all by its itty bitty self, that is
available to a typical user (i.e., native or on the Apple App Store)...

That is not (usually long ago) on Android.

The iKooks scream bloody murder that such app functionality exists.
And yet, it never shows up on the Apple App Store (or native in iOS).

The iKooks desperately google for all the Apple meaningless trademarks tehy
can find and they post a hundred of them as "proof", where if that's the
best they can do, then it instantly puts their abject filthy lies to rest.

My question for anyone out there is to simply name an app functionality
that you feel does not exist on either platform, but you don't really need
to name functionality on Android not on iOS because there is so much of
that.

What you need to find is a single useful app functionality on iOS which you
feel doesn't exist (remember the descriptive word "crippled") on Android.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-02-05, Andy Burnelli <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>>> He's definitely following that playbook.
>>
>> both of the resident trolls do.
>
> I have an agenda

Trolling.

[Jolly Roger]

He lies through his teeth every chance he gets and completely
misrepresents what people here say, and yet his gullible followers will
still side with him claiming other people here are the "real trolls".
It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

[Andy Burnelli]

Jolly Roger wrote:

>>> When you concurred with badgolferman's utterly ridiculous statement
>>> that newsreader functionality didn't exist on Android,
>>
>> nobody said anything close to that.
>
> He lies through his teeth every chance he gets and completely
> misrepresents what people here say, and yet his gullible followers will
> still side with him claiming other people here are the "real trolls".
> It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

If I "lie through my teeth", why is it you can't answer a simple question?

Given: *There is _zero_ app functionality on iOS not on Android.*
Anyone who says otherwise needs merely to: *Name just one*

Name just one app functionality on iOS not (usually long ago) on Android.
*Name just one*

HINT: You can't. So, in your kindergarten desperation, you call
all facts you _hate_ about Apple products, to be lies.
--
UVAG: Lbh pna'g. And pasting Apple meaningless trademarks is stupid.

[nospam]

In article <trr6hn$3rmo6$1...@paganini.bofh.team>, Andy Burnelli

<nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> If I "lie through my teeth", why is it you can't answer a simple question?
>
> Given: *There is _zero_ app functionality on iOS not on Android.*
> Anyone who says otherwise needs merely to: *Name just one*

they have, on numerous occasions.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-02-06, Andy Burnelli <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>>> When you concurred with badgolferman's utterly ridiculous statement
>>>> that newsreader functionality didn't exist on Android,
>>>
>>> nobody said anything close to that.
>>
>> He lies through his teeth every chance he gets and completely
>> misrepresents what people here say, and yet his gullible followers
>> will still side with him claiming other people here are the "real
>> trolls". It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.
>
> If I "lie through my teeth", why is it you can't answer a simple
> question?

I don't have to your trolls.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> If I "lie through my teeth", why is it you can't answer a simple question?
>>
>> Given: *There is _zero_ app functionality on iOS not on Android.*
>> Anyone who says otherwise needs merely to: *Name just one*
>
> they have, on numerous occasions.

And yet, it's the biggest difference between the two platforms.

*iOS is crippled in app functionality; Android is not*

Due to Apple restrictions, iOS will always be crippled in functionality.

[Andy Burnelli]

Jolly Roger wrote:

>> If I "lie through my teeth", why is it you can't answer a simple
>> question?
>
> I don't have to your trolls.

Hi Jolly Roger,

You don't own the intelligence to realize that your visceral hatred of any
question that shows that *iOS is crippled*, is proof that you know it is.

The fact is *iOS is crippled in functionality because _Apple_ crippled it*.

[Bodger]

On 2/4/2023 1:02 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>  *What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*

Why would I or anyone else under _normal_ circumstances really care how
large the updates are? OK, if I was stuck somewhere in the far boondocks
and had a data-limited plan and I felt compelled for come reason to install
an update over a shaky LTE connection I might care a bit but in such a
circumstance a rational person would avoid any sort of update on _any_ OS.
In the _real_ world the size difference, if any, would mean a difference of
a few seconds over 5G or decent Wi-Fi.

[Alan Browne]

Yep.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-02-06 19:48, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-02-06 13:36, Bodger wrote:
>> On 2/4/2023 1:02 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>>   *What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*
>>
>> Why would I or anyone else under _normal_ circumstances really care
>> how large the updates are? OK, if I was stuck somewhere in the far
>> boondocks and had a data-limited plan and I felt compelled for come
>> reason to install an update over a shaky LTE connection I might care a
>> bit but in such a circumstance a rational person would avoid any sort
>> of update on _any_ OS. In the _real_ world the size difference, if
>> any, would mean a difference of a few seconds over 5G or decent Wi-Fi.
>
> Yep.

Indeed.

These types of discussion are ridiculous... I just read half a dozen of
the posts, then ignore.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[sms]

Well-stated. An update that takes five minutes and that uses 300MB of
data versus one that takes eight minutes and uses 500MB of data is not
something anyone really cares about.

That said, how many times have you booted up a laptop, ready to give a
presentation, and Windows decides that it's time to do an update that
takes several minutes.

--
“How beautiful it is to stay silent when someone expects you to be
enraged.” ― Giada De Laurentiis

[nospam]

In article <trrp3p$36ock$2...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> An update that takes five minutes and that uses 300MB of
> data versus one that takes eight minutes and uses 500MB of data is not
> something anyone really cares about.

you're moving the goalposts. your original claim was that ios updates
were always the full 2+ gb, which is wildly incorrect.

> That said, how many times have you booted up a laptop, ready to give a
> presentation, and Windows decides that it's time to do an update that
> takes several minutes.

only for those who don't plan ahead or fail to disable automatic
updates.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

> even assuming 600 mb, it's a lot less than 2.8 gig, which is clear
> proof of *incremental* updates and that you were wrong.

Every time you talk about iOS, nospam, it's clear you have no idea that iOS
is built as a monolithic block. Apple does _not_ build incremental updates.

Any one device gets an incremental 'diff' update, but the main reason why
iOS has so many zero-day exploits in the wild is due to the monolith.

FACT:
*Not only has iOS the most zero-day exploits, but Apple never finds them.*

[Andy Burnelli]

sms wrote:

>>>   *What exactly is the size difference between Android/iOS updates?*
>>
>> Why would I or anyone else under _normal_ circumstances really care how
>> large the updates are? OK, if I was stuck somewhere in the far boondocks
>> and had a data-limited plan and I felt compelled for come reason to
>> install an update over a shaky LTE connection I might care a bit but in
>> such a circumstance a rational person would avoid any sort of update on
>> _any_ OS. In the _real_ world the size difference, if any, would mean a
>> difference of a few seconds over 5G or decent Wi-Fi.
>
> Well-stated. An update that takes five minutes and that uses 300MB of
> data versus one that takes eight minutes and uses 500MB of data is not
> something anyone really cares about.
>
> That said, how many times have you booted up a laptop, ready to give a
> presentation, and Windows decides that it's time to do an update that
> takes several minutes.

It's clear neither Steve nor Carlos understand how smartphones update.

They can't understand how iOS or Android update, so they will never
understand why it matters greatly that iOS is a primitive monolith.

iOS updates are built & distributed as a primitive monolith.
Android updates are in modern layers (ever since Android 10 and up).

As a result of that primitive monolith, iOS not only has the most zero-day
exploits, but because Apple has to collect & rebuild the monolith every
time a line of code changes, *iOS has the most zero-day exploits* too!

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> Given: *There is _zero_ app functionality on iOS not on Android.*
>> Anyone who says otherwise needs merely to: *Name just one*
>
> they have, on numerous occasions.

Hi nospam,

You think I don't know why you're deathly afraid of this question.
*The answer proves the biggest difference between the two platforms.*

1. iOS is crippled; Android is not.
2. Plenty of useful Android app functionality is _impossible_ on iOS.
3. Yet, conversely, absolutely _nothing_ on iOS isn't on Android.

Hence...
I completely understand why you are _desperate_ to make that go away.

[nospam]

In article <trs8as$3mr1$1...@paganini.bofh.team>, Andy Burnelli

<nos...@nospam.net> wrote:

> Apple does _not_ build incremental updates.

yes they do, for both mac os and ios.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

> your original claim was that ios updates
> were always the full 2+ gb, which is wildly incorrect.

It's clear neither Steve nor Carlos, nor nospam, understand how iOS
updates. *Even as it's one of the greatest flaws in iOS*.

Even nospam doesn't understand you measure iOS updates at the factory.
Where the primitive iOS monolith is built & tested before shipping.

At the factory, Apple has to spend _time_ to build the primitive monolith
Even if only a single line of code has to be changed.
The entire monolith needs to be run through the QA suite of tests.

Every single time even a single line of code is changed in the monolith.
No other common consumer operating system but iOS is built that way.

Only iOS.
This is key.

And yet, Steve, Carlos, and certainly nospam don't understand that fact.

As a result of Apple's primitive monolithic release mechanism, the iPhone
not only has the most zero-day holes of any smartphone - but due to the
monolith delay - half are exploited before Apple even finds out about them.

Worse... due to the primitive monolith, Apple can only manage to adequately
patch *one release and one release only* (currently iOS 16).

No other release. Just one.
Due to the primitive monolith.

[Michael]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 04:25:42 +0000, Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Those reasons, summarized perhaps too simply for you below, are...
> 1. Apple restricts what apps can do that it allows on the App Store.
> 2. Google does too (but to a hugely lesser extent by all accounts).
> 3. Even so, independent _developers_ create most app functionality.
> 4. And they can easily publish for Android users (but not for iOS users).

Everyone knows that they can't do the things on iOS that Android does.
Why are you trying to convince them of something they don't want to hear?
--
[I filter out all Google Groups posts so if I don't reply, that may be why]

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> Apple does _not_ build incremental updates.
>
> yes they do, for both mac os and ios.

Do you know the difference, nospam, between building and testing a release
stream, & then rolling that release stream out to every user on the planet?

Answer: You don't.

Steve doesn't know it either even as it's likely one of the biggest
differences between Android and iOS, and it's why Apple fucks up so much.

[Alan]

On 2023-02-06 17:08, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>> even assuming 600 mb, it's a lot less than 2.8 gig, which is clear
>> proof of *incremental* updates and that you were wrong.
>
> Every time you talk about iOS, nospam, it's clear you have no idea that iOS
> is built as a monolithic block. Apple does _not_ build incremental updates.

You are completely wrong.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-02-06 20:34, Peter wrote:

> If only iOS is updated the way you explained and if Android is updated like
> a normal operating system, then that's a big difference because it slows
> Apple down and prevents Apple from supporting more than one release at a
> time.

Eh?

> But if that's so, why doesn't that google Android/iOS comparison document
> from sms cover that difference in how the operating systems are built then?

Irrelevant compounding irrelevant doesn't get anyone very far.

[Andy Burnelli]

Hank Rogers wrote:

> you sure like to type

Steve, sometimes, as your Hank nym, you say funny things.
And I appreciate that.

Since you maintain that political document that you use to cater to
Cupertino, I'll summarize for you what matters most for this topic.

*The major difference between iOS & Android is iOS is crippled.*
*Android is not.*

While there is plenty of app functionality on Android not on iOS...
*There is _zero_ app functionality on iOS not on Android*

If there was, someone, even you, could name it - and they have not.

[Andy Burnelli]

Hank Rogers wrote:

> And there's zero adults using iphones, right?

The iPhone user, in a word, Steve, is stupid.
You can't make those ungodly profit margins off of intelligent people.

I'm a scientist. And an engineer Steve.
You being an engineer should understand.

You and I are likely the most educated people on this newsgroup.
Only David Empson could hold a candle to our knowledge, Steve.

You and I also own both platforms, Steve.
I've bought likely more iOS devices than many of the iKooks, in fact.

You too.
I buy them for people who desperately desire iPhones, Steve.

Fancy that.

The question is why.
The answer is marketing.

Marketing preys on stupid people, Steve.
Marketing === lies.
[Billions upon billions of little white lies, in fact.]

Kellogg: "Breakfast is the most important meal of the day"
Apple: iOS is safer than Android

Lies are for stupid people to believe.
Me? I believe in facts.

You're a politician, right. You lie all the time, right?
It's normal for you to lie.

But not me. I'm a scientist. And an engineer.
I tell the truth.

More importantly, I don't trust marketing lies.
I investigate them.

That's how I know they're lies.
Most people _believe_ every word a marketing ad ever fed them.

Not me.
I _know_ people believe marketing lies, Steve.

For a decade, I've asked _everyone_ who has an iPhone, why they bought that
iPhone given it's crippled (which is something I'm well aware of).

They always regurgitate _exactly_ the lies Apple marketing fed them.

I ask people all the time test questions, such as why they're putting
high-octane gasoline in a Honda Civic too - just to test their them.

They always regurgitate _exactly_ the lies Chevron marketing fed them.

It turns out most people are a confluence of these traits:
a. They don't question facts (which is why they're stupid).
b. They are uneducated in that they "think" they know facts they don't.
c. They therefore believe everything MARKETING feeds them to believe.

And, when I ask them, they regurgitate it all back to me.
That's how I know almost every iPhone owner... is incredibly stupid.

Note: They may be intelligent people on an IQ test, and they may be
educated in other things, but when they tell me the iPhone is safer than
Android or some other marketing-fed lie, then I know they're stupid.
--
You can't make those ungodly profit margins off of intelligent people.

[Alan]

On 2023-02-07 20:10, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Hank Rogers wrote:
>
>> And there's zero adults using iphones, right?
>
> The iPhone user, in a word, Steve, is stupid.
> You can't make those ungodly profit margins off of intelligent people.

Are Samsung's profit margins on its high end phones any less, Arlen?

>
> I'm a scientist. And an engineer Steve.

So you claim...

...but never prove.